(original episode: https://kaigaiiju.ch/episodes/matz1 ) On Christmas Eve 2024, we welcomed a special guest: Yukihiro Matsumoto, the creator of the globally used programming language Ruby! Mr. Matsumoto aka Matz, who was invited to "EuRuKo," Europe’s largest Ruby conference held in Bosnia in 2024, kindly gave us his time for this recording.
Although Matz has no experience immigrating overseas, his English skills were polished through interactions with his American colleagues when he was a Christian missionary during his student days. From that experience, he lost any resistance to English. Later, regarding the programming language Ruby, which he had started as a hobby, he received a message (in English) from the Dave Thomas, who wanted to…
(original episode: https://kaigaiiju.ch/episodes/matz1 ) On Christmas Eve 2024, we welcomed a special guest: Yukihiro Matsumoto, the creator of the globally used programming language Ruby! Mr. Matsumoto aka Matz, who was invited to "EuRuKo," Europe’s largest Ruby conference held in Bosnia in 2024, kindly gave us his time for this recording.
Although Matz has no experience immigrating overseas, his English skills were polished through interactions with his American colleagues when he was a Christian missionary during his student days. From that experience, he lost any resistance to English. Later, regarding the programming language Ruby, which he had started as a hobby, he received a message (in English) from the Dave Thomas, who wanted to write a book about it. The publication of that book became the initial catalyst for Ruby’s spread. Since then, conferences have been held overseas annually, and he has been actively involved on an international level.
Matz says that you don’t need to be perfect at English, and believing so can greatly expand your possibilities. He also mentions that since English is the world’s lingua franca, not speaking it can lead to a closed-off world, which he feels is a great waste. Furthermore, he explains there is an expression in the Bible, "fellow citizens," which means that although people may have different birth countries or passports, they share the same faith as Christians. He believes the same can be said for the tech industry; if you can communicate based on a shared love for programming or Ruby, you can become friends. Since Ruby is the language Matz wanted for himself, people who like the language have similar tastes, and he feels that interacting with such people, regardless of nationality, is very enjoyable.
Ruby is a programming language that started as a hobby and is now used all over the world. The fact that Matz could speak English—or at least had no resistance to it—was undoubtedly a key factor in Ruby’s development and success. Conversely, there must be countless innovations that have missed their opportunity due to a lack of communication with people overseas. This is a true shame, and in that respect, Ruby stands as a wonderful example of global success.
Matz, thank you so much for sharing your invaluable stories with us. In the second half, we plan to bring you a tech talk with excerpts of the more technical content from the same interview. Please look forward to it! Merry Christmas!
Guest: Creator of the Ruby Programming Language Yukihiro Matsumoto
The creator of the programming language Ruby. He is the Chairman of the Ruby Association and serves as a technical advisor for several companies, including ZOZO, Inc. and Linkers Corporation. Through his work with open source and community building, he contributes to enhancing the skills and motivation of engineers both in Japan and internationally. A resident of Matsue City, Shimane Prefecture, he was made an honorary citizen of the city in 2009 in recognition of his achievements in developing Ruby. In 2012, he was selected by the Cabinet Office of Japan as one of the "Japanese people active on the global stage and sharing the message of Japan." He is commonly known by his nickname, "Matz."
Contents
- 00:01:05 Introduction of the Special Guest
- 00:02:46 Background on Learning English, Experience as a Missionary
- 00:09:41 Ruby’s International Recognition
- 00:14:01 Matz’s global popularity
- 00:15:14 The Psychological Barrier Japanese People Have Towards English
- 00:17:52 The First Ruby Conference and the Publication of the Ruby Book
- 00:21:58 The Pitfalls of Japanese Perfectionism; English Doesn’t Have to Be Perfect
- 00:28:03 The Courage to Expand Possibilities; People with a Shared Mindset Regardless of Nationality
- 00:30:07 Japanese Products Missing Opportunities; Hopes for Them to Follow Ruby’s Success
Chikahiro: Okay, let’s start the Kaigai-ijuh Channel, (Living Overseas Podcast).
Chikahiro: Today we have a very special guest. We’re here in Sarajevo, Bosnia, for the EuRuKo conference, and we’ve invited Yukihiro Matsumoto, the creator of Ruby, who is of course invited for EuRuKo as well.
Matz: Yes, thank you for having me.
Chikahiro: In the context of overseas relocation, from what I just heard, it sounds like you have never immigrated, right?
Matz: That’s right. Well, Ruby is used all over the world, so I go to conferences in various places, but I myself have never immigrated; I’ve always lived in Japan.
Matz: And I’ve never been abroad for a long period. I think I’ve probably never been abroad for more than two weeks.
Matz: But, I’ve had many abroad experiences, and that’s why I’m invited here in this podcast.
Chikahiro: Yes, thank you very much.
Chikahiro: And, well, I have been developing Ruby as a developer since around 2006.
Matz: Since that long ago?
Chikahiro: Yes, I was a university student at the time, and I was actually an intern in sales. During that time, Yugui was a colleague with me.
Matz: Ah, I see.
Chikahiro: Yes. And at that time, I first became interested in programming because Yugui seemed to be having so much fun. So I asked, "Which language do you recommend?" and she said "Well, Ruby!"
Matz: Well, she would say that.
Chikahiro: And I started from there. For those who don’t know, Ruby is a language that has carved out a truly remarkable, an important page in the history of software engineering. One factor is undoubtedly that Matz is fluent in English, and as he mentioned earlier, he has considerable experience abroad. I think that’s a huge element, and I really wanted to ask him about that.
Matz: Thank you very much.
Chikahiro: We managed to get Matz and we’re recording in his room.
Chikahiro: So, Matz, may I ask you about your English?
Matz: Well, about that, I’m not really sure where I studied it, but as a normal Japanese person, I had regular English classes in junior high and high school. And I also had English classes in university, but we didn’t learn how to speak in the school, you know.
Chikahiro: That’s true.
Matz: So, I wonder what was different about me? Well, I took a two-year leave from university. I was a Christian missionary and my assignment was in Japan. However, I was always working in a pair and my partner was mostly American.
Matz: Also, my report line, or rather, my boss, was an American who couldn’t speak Japanese, so I had many opportunities to use English. I can’t really think of anything special other than.
Chikahiro: Hearing that, there are quite a few people who go to study English, but I think people who is doing something *in* English is actually quite rare.
Matz: That might be true.
Chikahiro: And especially in your case, Matz, you were a Christian missionary. That means it require to good understanding of cultural background, Christianity is huge context as well as massive English vocabulary and your mission was a missionary work!
Matz: Well, for missionary work, the target audience was Japanese people, so I often used Japanese in that regard. But when I consulted with my companion or reported to my boss, it was in English.
Matz: And naturally, my vocabulary is quite skewed. I have a lot of vocabulary related to religion and IT, but my everyday vocabulary is a bit lacking. So, it’s a bit biased, but I keenly felt the importance of English as a means of communication for some purpose.
Chikahiro: Excuse me, when was that about?
Matz: Uh, that was around 1986 or so.
Chikahiro: I wasn’t born yet then.
Matz: That’s right, a long, long time ago, when I was just around 20 years old.
Matz: And, they also came to Japan and spoke Japanese, and they improved their Japanese incredibly quickly.
Matz: And when I asked them how, they said it was "immersive." In other words, being completely immersed in the language, speaking in that language, communicating in that language, thinking in that language, doing that all the time is apparently very good for language learning.
Matz: And, uh, the missionaries in our church only have a two-year term. So if they spent two years learning the language, their term would be over.
Matz: So, somehow, in about six months, they manage to become able to speak it somehow. People who could only speak English learn Japanese. I think that sounds incredibly difficult, but the reverse is also true.
Matz: And because I was constantly speaking English with my colleagues and my boss, although it wasn’t as completely immersive as their situation, it was still a somewhat immersive environment. And communication was also in English. I think that was probably what was good about it.
Chikahiro: Yes, that’s right. Because, yes, the purpose was clear, and it’s not always that easy.
Matz: That’s true.
Matz: So, um, probably those who have emigrated overseas or studied abroad went there to study, and studying was their goal, with English being the means. They often use English constantly with that understanding. So, those in such an environment probably improve very quickly. On the other hand, for people who are learning English as a so-called language study, where English itself is the goal, it might be harder to focus because there’s no clear goal. Well, that’s just my guess.
Matz: Also, you often hear about Japanese people sticking together when they go abroad, because they’re from the same country. But from a language learning perspective, that seems a bit of a waste.
Chikahiro: That’s right. In Matz case, it was in Japan, but with American colleagues, right?
Matz: Colleagues, yes.
Chikahiro: You were intensively using English with them. By the way, during that time, did you really spend a full two years as a missionary?
Matz: Yes, it was full-time.
Chikahiro: Full-time!
Matz: Yes. So from when I woke up in the morning until I went to bed at night, it was all about Christianity.
Chikahiro: During that time, what was the feeling like? Did it not quite feel like you were living in Japan?
Matz: That’s right. However, even living in Japan, when I went out into town and talked to people, I was naturally speaking Japanese to Japanese people, so at those times it was Japan. But when I was in my apartment having meetings with my colleague, or making small talk, that was mostly in English.
Chikahiro: And how old were you then, Matz?
Matz: From about 20 to 21 years old.
Chikahiro: I see. It’s like, now, for example, Matz is invited to places like here in Euruko, and it’s an international conference, so it’s in English, the attendees are English speakers, all the talks are in English, and Matz, of course, speaks in English. You surely didn’t imagine back then that things would turn out this way.
Matz: Oh, back then? Oh, not at all, not at all. I never thought I’d be using English this much. I could do it if I tried, but I never imagined I’d be using it this much back then.
Chikahiro: Were you already programming at that time?
Matz: I was majoring in computer science at university, and I took a leave of absence when I was going from my third to fourth year. Oh, wait, was it from second to third year? Yes, I took a leave of absence between my second and third year.
Matz: So, I was doing computer science, and of course, I was programming. But Ruby was not yet around at all.
Chikahiro: Oh, I see. But at that time, you weren’t committing to OSS or anything like that at all.
Matz: Not at all. I was just a student.
Chikahiro: Well, nowadays, for example, what I often hear here, especially among engineers, is that they commit to OSS, and the discussions are naturally in English, so they use it a lot for reading and writing, but they can’t speak it. That’s a pattern I see quite often. But for Matz, your entry into English wasn’t like that, was it?
Matz: That’s right. After my missionary service ended, in my third and fourth years, I did participate in discussions and conversations on overseas BBSs and things like that. But, well, not that much, not really.
Chikahiro: And since then, have you continuously been in a life that involves English or contact with foreign countries?
Matz: Not at all.
Matz: Let’s see, when was it? Around 1997 or 1998, Ruby finally started to become known overseas, so there were things like translating documents into English, or receiving inquiry emails and replying to them in English. But that was about 10 years after my missionary life ended, so for about 10 years, I didn’t really use English much.
Matz: Um, well, I was programming all along, so I did things like read english documents, but I hadn’t really had any serious conversations in English for about 10 years.
Chikahiro: So there was quite a gap?
Matz: Yes, in terms of communication in English, yes. I occasionally wrote emails in English, that’s about it.
Chikahiro: And yet, for example, today, or when we just went for lunch, you can communicate perfectly normally, can’t you?
Matz: Yes.
Chikahiro: Even with that blank period, is that because of your experiences back then?
Matz: Yes, I suppose I was recalling past experiences to speak. Yes.
Matz: And it was from 2001 that Ruby conferences started being held overseas, and I began to go abroad frequently. So that was even later, wasn’t it?
Matz: About 13 or 14 years. There was a blank of about 13 or 14 years from my English life.
Matz: And in that year, I started getting invited to overseas conferences. Yes, well, despite my poor skills, I’ve been communicating like that all along.
Chikahiro: but you get quite a lot of questions fired at you.
Matz: That’s right. It’s tough, isn’t it?
Matz: When I’m asked questions, well, I have to understand them, and then I have to instantly compose a reply in English. But, well, I guess you get used to it after doing it many times.
Matz: When I’m chatting at conferences and such, people sometimes say things like, "Your English has gotten better compared to before," and I think, "Oh, has it gotten better?" I can’t really tell myself. That’s how it feels.
Chikahiro: you’re not studying english in Japan, right?
Matz: You know, I hate studying. Really.
Matz: So everyone diligently goes to English schools and stuff, right?
Matz: Like Aeon, Geos, etc. There are people who study online with Duolingo and stuff, and I think, "Wow, that’s amazing." I really respect them.
Chikahiro: Matz , you say that, but you’re fluent... Huh, really?!
Matz: So, honestly, I think it would be best if everyone spoke Japanese, if all humanity could speak Japanese, but unfortunately, that’s not going to happen. So, I have no choice but to speak English.
Chikahiro: But, for example, in software engineering too, you have prominent figures, or famous people, and I imagine you sometimes have quite intense discussions.
Matz: Well, in terms of frequency and time, yes, we do have discussions.
Chikahiro: The vocabulary you use then, for instance, is quite different from what you used back in those days, isn’t it?
Matz: My vocabulary has increased considerably because the number of conversations has increased, compared to the past.
Matz: In the past, it was really like I only knew religious terms, everyday conversation terms plus religious terms, and IT terms. Compared to that, my vocabulary might have increased a little more (laughs).
Chikahiro: By the way, back then, why did you decide to do it in English? I mean, at that time, with the missionaries being American, why did you decide to do that?
Matz: It’s not that I chose it. Of course, I chose to become a missionary.
Matz: But, when I became a missionary, things like whether my boss would be Japanese or a foreigner, or who my colleagues would be, were decided by the, well, the administrators, so I had no choice at all.
Matz: And among them, there were people who worked with other Japanese people, and in that case, they wouldn’t use English. In my case, it was just by chance, but for those two years, with very few exceptions, my colleagues were almost all from English-speaking countries. It was coincidental, well, since there are many Americans, it’s not that rare, but I had many opportunities to use English.
Chikahiro: Ah, it feels like fate, or something amazing. Because of that, Ruby became popular, and now... No, I really think English was a factor in Ruby’s popularity.
Matz: Well, English probably played a part. You probably wouldn’t want to use a language whose creator only answers in Japanese when asked anything.
Chikahiro: you know I work abroad. your influence is incredible, I think. Because for people like me, there are not many Japanese people, and very few software engineers.
Matz: Seems like there are few.
Chikahiro: For example, if I ask my colleagues if they’ve ever seen a Japanese person in the work, they are likely to answer "Oh, you’re the first," so there’s no advantage.
Matz: To being Japanese?
Chikahiro: Yeah.
Matz: Right, right.
Chikahiro: But, like today, you are basically super popular, everyone knows Matz here.
Matz: Well, that’s true, it’s a Ruby conference after all.
Chikahiro: But still, I think it’s amazing.
Matz: You think so? Thank you.
Chikahiro: I feel like there are many things in Japan that can’t quite break through that language barrier.
Chikahiro: Good things exist in Japan, but just because of the language barrier it doesn’t come out even within Ruby. for example, there was a Ruby library, it was considered for inclusion in (Ruby on) Rails and an email from the Rails team might have come in English, but they thought "Oh, English is too difficult". Apparently they didn’t reply it, the Rails side ended up having to create a new one by themselves even though the library was implemented earlier, I’ve heard stories like that.
Matz: Is that so?
Chikahiro: Yes. And they had made exactly the same thing. This kind of thing, honestly, it’s not just a language problem anymore, it’s a bit of a psychological problem.
Matz: I think there’s a psychological issue.
Chikahiro: I think that’s a huge part of it.
Matz: I think it’s significant.
Matz: For example, I mentioned I started going to conferences in 2001. Around that time, there were hardly any Japanese people going to overseas technical conferences.
Matz: However, now, say in 2020, I think the number of people saying they’ll try going to an overseas technical conference, even if it’s not Ruby-related, has increased considerably compared to the past.
Matz: For example, stories like "I went to a JavaScript conference," or it could be anything, "I went to a Rust conference," or "I went to a Swift conference," are no longer that uncommon, I think.
Matz: So, that psychological barrier, the psychological barrier to attending overseas conferences, I think has lowered significantly in these past 20 years, and I think that’s a very good thing.
Matz: I feel that engineers have become more internationalized.
Chikahiro: That’s right. Also, luckily, the programming language itself is already the same in the world, so we’re really touching the same things.
Matz: That’s true.
Chikahiro: Even if you don’t understand the words, you can sometimes understand what’s being said.
Matz: Exactly, there were people who communicated by writing things down.
Matz: Like, someone was saying, "There’s a bug here," but since Japanese and English weren’t getting through, they started writing a program on the wall, pointing and saying "here" and stuff, and everyone was like, "Oh, I see, I see.""
Matz: I’ve had experiences where programming languages transcended the language barrier, like "Wow!"
Chikahiro: Yes, that happens, that definitely happens.
Chikahiro: You know, even among technical fields, I’ve heard similar stories from other technologists. In architecture, for example, they show blueprints to communicate. But even then, the language barrier is still...
Matz: It’s easier if you can speak it, right?
Chikahiro: Yes, it’s definitely easier, and you can’t join discussions. Also, what is it, in terms of missed opportunities, the example from before is a classic case, but I feel like there are an incredible number of those.
Matz: It’s such a waste.
Chikahiro: In that respect, Matz, when you were invited, did you feel scared, or like you didn’t want to go? Were you okay with that?
Matz: It’s a hassle. It’s a hassle, and I’m more of a homebody, so I’d rather stay home.
Matz: But even so, for example, when they organized the first Ruby conference in 2001 and invited me, I thought, well, since they went to the trouble of doing it, and they’re saying they like your language, I should go. So I’ve been going ever since.
Matz: And before Corona, I had perfect attendance, except for one time I missed, but other than that, I always attended.
Matz: And that one time, it coincided with when my child was born, so I thought, I can’t really go overseas leaving my wife who was very pregnant and about to give birth, so I skipped it. But other than that, I’ve always gone.
Matz: Well, yes, so because there are people like that, I’d think, "Okay, I’ll go," and when I went, I was treated quite well (laughs). Well, it’s a Ruby conference, after all.
Chikahiro: That may be, but was the first Ruby conference in America or somewhere like that?
Matz: That’s right.
Matz: The first Ruby conference was held in America in November 2001.
Chikahiro: At that time, were you the only Japanese person who went?
Matz: Um, there were about two other Japanese people who came, and I thought that was amazing.
Matz: You know, the first Ruby conference only had about 36 attendees. Compared to today’s conferences with hundreds of people, it felt like it could blow away with a puff of wind. Among them, there were three Japanese people, very modestly. Oh, Dave Thomas, who is here today, was also there.
Chikahiro: Oh, already! That was early.
Matz: Um, so Dave Thomas published a book called Programming Ruby in 2000.
Matz: And the people who learned about Ruby from reading that book gathered for it.
Chikahiro: Originally, Matz, you made the Ruby by yourself, right?
Matz: Yes, that’s right. The Ruby language, yes.
Chikahiro: And from there, Dave Thomas found it, is that how it happened?
Matz: That’s right. I got contacted around ’97, ’98. He said something like Ruby was interesting, and we exchanged a few messages. Then in ’99, um, where was it, an editor from Addison-Wesley contacted me saying someone wanted to write a book about Ruby.
Matz: And when I asked who the author would be, they said Dave Thomas and Andy Hunt would write it. And I thought, I know those guys!
Matz: And he wrote it with incredible speed. Yes, yes, I got an email on December 31, 1999.
Matz: Right around the time of Y2K. And when I replied, Dave Thomas said something like, "Okay, I’m going to start writing now," and then I got a flood of emails like, "I read the source code, what does this mean?"
Matz: Well, I can speak English, but I’m not extremely proficient. So I was struggling and writing replies in English.
Matz: Then the book came out in November of that year. Incredibly fast.
Matz: And the people who saw the book that came out in the latter half of 2000 thought, "Well, this Ruby language is interesting, let’s all get together." And that gathering was the first Ruby conference, in November 2001, exactly one year after the book’s publication.
Matz: So, if anything, it’s not that I want to speak English; honestly, I’d rather not, but I speak it out of necessity due to the circumstances. That’s how it feels.
Chikahiro: Looking at the journey of Ruby and Rails in Japan, one problem I’ve always been aware of is that many people feel they can’t speak English, or that going overseas is a psychological hurdle, rather than a technical one.
Matz: That’s right.
Chikahiro: Like you said earlier, you received a message from Dave Thomas. And you replied to it. You could say that was the beginning, as you just mentioned.
Chikahiro: You were able to grasp that opportunity. And as in the example I gave earlier, that library was contacted, but couldn’t reply, and lost the opportunity.
Chikahiro: I think there are an incredible number of such cases.
Chikahiro: Working overseas, I often feel a sense of frustration about this.
Chikahiro: In a way. It’s not that Japanese people can’t succeed or anything like that, of course not, and Ruby is a perfect example of that.
Matz: That’s true.
Chikahiro: Rather, everyone respects it, and in this context or community, that’s naturally the case.
Chikahiro: I believe there are an incredible number of things that are not being put out there, or opportunities being missed, especially due to language or psychological factors. What are your thoughts on this?
Matz: Well, um, it’s sort of like... perfectionism, I suppose. There’s a tendency to fall into the mindset of "I can’t speak English, so it’s impossible for me to reply.""
Matz: I wonder if it’s like that in every country. But I feel it’s particularly common among Japanese people.
Matz: And I feel like I see more Japanese people hesitating or backing down, thinking things like, "I can’t speak English, so communication is a bit difficult for me."
Matz: On the other hand, depending on the country, some people speak incredibly broken English, just stringing English words together, and if you go "Huh?" they look at you like, "Why don’t you understand?"
Matz: I want to say, "I don’t understand because your English is incomprehensible," but there are such assertive people. And, well, but looking at it overall, that might be better.
Matz: Like, "It’s your fault if you don’t understand." Or even if they don’t understand, they’ll explain it over and over, so it’s fine. But I feel it would be better to have that attitude of just trying to put yourself out there.
Matz: Otherwise, it feels like a big waste.
Matz: Because, you know, this conference is also basically conducted in English, but if you ask if everyone is good at English, well, there are quite a few people who aren’t that good.
Matz: However, English is generally a part of their lives. So, they usually speak it normally, and, well, even if they make mistakes, they can still get their point across. And I feel that’s probably fine