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The following transcript was generated by AI and may contain inaccuracies.

Paul: Welcome to the podcast everyone. Today I am joined by a guest who recently shared a really powerful post on LinkedIn about the emotional impact of working in digital forensics. We’re going to explore that experience and that post in depth today. Please introduce yourself to the viewers and tell us who you are and all about Sena Forensics.

Bunmi: Thank you Paul. So my name is Bunmi Bloom. I’m the co-founder of Sena Forensics, and I have set up this company to help digital forensics labs, units, individuals, whether it’s private or law enforcement, get on board with their quality management system.

What that involves is SOP preparation and development. Those technical documents that you’ve got specialists that just don’t have time for, and they’re so busy with their team or other priorities trying to manage deadlines. We come in and we go, look, what do you want this SOP to look like? What does it need to have in it?

Then where I’ve got the ISO 17025 awareness and understanding, I can interpret that and make sure it’s compliant and it just helps people get through accreditation a lot quicker. A lot of the time people don’t want to write these sorts of things because they don’t have the time.

We come in, we’re enthusiastic, we understand how the tools work, and we can get things done in days that might take weeks or months. That’s what we’re here for. Create a quality management system, have a look if there’s any gaps where things could be improved, and then we go from there.

Paul: Perfect. And of course, when you talk about people internally right there, quite often they are DFI working at the lab who are, shall we say, selected to write the SOPs and to do them.

Bunmi: Yeah, exactly. And they’re selective, but they think, oh, I didn’t sign up for this. Where’s all the techie fun bit? I want to get on and connect this to that. I want to find out what this tool now does. I want to get on speaking with the vendors and expanding the team and our capabilities and work out why we’ve got so many limitations.

But that’s where we come in and go, look, this bit is very important. Everybody wants to or has to at some point get accredited. It’s just a case of us helping you guys get there quicker. Selected is the right way to put it. It’s more like, this is your job from now on. Have fun.

Paul: Because many people who are selected don’t actually want to sit there for hours and hours and write these SOPs. Your company actually provides that service.

Bunmi: Yeah, exactly. We come in and we want to do it because we know how to do it, and it’s just a case of us sitting down having these meetings. But we try and get the most out of these meetings, and I know everyone hates meetings, but we try and make them as quick and painless as possible.

That’s where we do a lot of the writing and then go, what’s your stance on this? And we just rather ping you a quick message and just get things done quicker. We try not to take up too much time of people wanting to do more hands-on work. We take that burden away from those organizations.

And it’s policies. We try and help with validation, internal audits, and validation plans. That’s another tricky area. We just kind of give some guidance and see where you’re at and see where we can come in and improve it.

Paul: Perfect. Great. Prior to Sena Forensics, where did you work?

Bunmi: I’ve got experience working with the FCA, the Financial Conduct Authority. I was a quality management specialist there. And then prior to that, I was working with the Metropolitan Police for 17 years. I started off as a 999 call handler in a control room. That was, yeah, had some difficult times there. Lots of unsociable hours and difficult calls to handle.

Then I moved on to coaching new call takers and dispatch. Then I left there in 2018 to work as a digital forensic assistant, and I kind of worked my way up from there. I started off just doing mobile phone extractions and not analyzing the data. It was purely mobile phones. It was getting the binary read off the phones and then shipping them off or sending them to a technician.

Then I got promoted to a technician. We started looking at computers using a whole range of tools from Axiom, Automate, Cellebrite and all of the tools you can think of.

Working on really serious CSAM cases and serious crimes, murder, sexual assault, all of those. We only dealt with the most serious crimes in the Met because there was just so much phones coming in and so many investigators and officers needing phones downloaded, we could only focus on the most serious crimes.

But then obviously you’re focusing on the most serious crimes, you end up getting the most serious evidence, don’t you? That’s when you see the more serious things that some people only dream of. You get exposure to a lot of things. That’s my history.

I think with all of that, it’s made me who I am today and I think now I can use my skills to help other people with whatever’s needed really.

Paul: And obviously you caught my attention by the post that you put out on LinkedIn, which really resonated with me and I know if other DFIs out there had read it, it would’ve resonated with them. I really wanted to talk to you about the post that you put out there. Can we begin by just asking what led you to write that post and why did you feel now is the right moment to share those experiences?

Bunmi: I think it’s a case of, it’s like a lot of things really. Whenever you kind of face a difficult time, it can take some time. When you are removed from that situation, sometimes it feels easier to talk about, I guess, when you are no longer having to face that on a day-to-day basis and time’s passed and it feels like the right time.

Generally I think my posts are more for me to reflect on some challenging times and to share that with people because these are things that when I went into the job, some of them I knew about, some of them I couldn’t picture or didn’t know would be this challenging.

That platform and LinkedIn gives me that chance to go, okay, I found this challenge and surely there’s other people that can relate. I just thought back on the times that were a little bit difficult in the job. All the times that I did speak to my colleagues or the same issues that kept coming up and I thought this would be a nice, almost like a community to say, okay, this is what’s happening in digital forensics, are we all going through it? Is anyone talking about it?

These are just casual chats that you have after your lunch break and then you don’t think anything of it. You just have a little moan and groan or a laugh or whatever it is, and then you don’t think of it as a big problem.

It was a chance for me to kind of get that feedback from people and from that post, a lot of people have reached out to me and said, I’m so glad you brought this up. A topic that everyone should be thinking about and people don’t talk about it enough.

They were really happy that I brought it up and I’m glad that I decided to write the post. It wasn’t even to get everyone’s attention. It was just purely me reflecting back on some more challenging times of my career really.

Paul: And your experience of working as a DFI?

Bunmi: Yeah, exactly. My experience of working as a DFI was very much a big career change for me. Obviously I was in policing, but I think someone even mentioned it in the comments actually. My experience was both hearing things when I’m taking 999 calls.

Sometimes I think, oh gosh, what’s worse hearing traumatic calls or distressing calls or seeing disturbing images and videos. You’re getting it from all senses, aren’t you? You’re hearing stuff and then looking at these images as well.

I just thought now’s the time to speak about it. Even people not in digital forensics have maybe a preconception of what happens in somebody’s mind. I’m sure you’ve heard as well, like, oh God, how do you deal with that? And I don’t even know what the answer is. I just go, I just do, or something like that. I just give a quick answer. I don’t break it down and it doesn’t need to be broken down if people don’t feel like they want to talk about it.

But for me, I thought there are different stages that I’ve been through in how I’ve dealt with everything. I remember feeling nervous when I first joined about how it’s gonna affect me and now maybe I’ve got to that stage where I don’t have that strong feeling and I’m a bit desensitized because I’ve got to get on with my job.

I might be at that stage now, but it’s definitely a strange cycle or development of emotions that happen. They start off heightened and worried and now they’re just a bit, yeah, this is it. Now this is what I do and I don’t overthink it. Or maybe I’ve just got used to it. I’m not sure.

Paul: It’s really interesting, something that you said there when you mentioned it’s the things you see, it’s the things you hear in that role, from the material that you’re exposed to. It’s also the things you read. Would you agree it’s quite sensory, quite a sensory overload when you are exposed to that seriousness of the serious side of humanity?

Bunmi: Yeah. I mean, if I think about the submission documents when an officer or a detective is submitting a case and then they choose the level of information they want to go into. Some of them are so detailed and it’s almost, I don’t know if it’s worse, because you’re trying to picture it.

Naturally the human mind thinks of the worst case scenario in that situation. The report is detailing what has been seen or what has happened. You are there trying to imagine it, and sometimes your imagination could be worse.

Like you said, sensory overload. What’s worse, hearing trauma, seeing it, and then you are reading it, but then reading it leads to imagining it, and then your imagination can run wild. There’s a lot going on.

This is why sometimes in the lab or the office, I think it’s so important that there’s not distractions, but something that keeps everyone together. I think that’s really hard for loads of reasons, whether it’s how tight your team is, the support you get from management.

But if you are just reading that day after day, I just think I was lucky. I could read something and I’d be like, oh God. And then I’ll close it and I go, what’s for lunch everyone? That was me just kind of going okay, that was a lot there. But I don’t know if everyone’s doing it.

Sometimes I see people and they’re staring and I feel like I start to notice people overly focused on what they’re reading. Sometimes in the past I’ve gone, oh, are you okay? Because you start to see how you were when you were finding it hard and then somebody might come into the team and then you kind of notice it.

I don’t know about you, but I definitely notice when people are a bit shocked. It is just the normal body language shaking their heads going, oh my God. Or that kind of thing. And I’ll go, oh, what happened? Even if at that moment, I’m not trying to find the exact details, but I don’t like the thought of that colleague keeping it within them. Does that make sense?

Paul: I think you’ve just described the act of social support really beautifully because there is a lot of research out there which suggests the more social support a DFI is given, it doesn’t take away the stresses that they can become vulnerable to, but it can absolutely lessen the impact.

I think what you’ve just described there by noticing a colleague who may be sat there focused on something horrendous and shaking their head, the fact that you realize that and approached them and said, are you okay, is wholly important.

Bunmi: Yeah. I do, because I think to me, the shaking of the head, it’s just because they’re not tearful, I don’t think naturally people pay much attention because it’s just a normal reaction.

But I know that me shaking my head could mean, am I gonna think about this on the way home? Am I gonna have a chance to talk to anybody on the way home? You just don’t know how that’s gonna play out in their mind. So I just think, let me act on the moment and just go, are you okay?

And then it leads to a conversation. For me, because I know when I was reading things that were difficult or looking at something and I would start talking about it and everyone would go, oh, I saw that as well. Or, my case had something similar and before you know it, we’re having a five, ten minute conversation about it.

Honestly, it’s such a strange relief. I can’t explain it any other way. That’s the good thing about having colleagues doing a similar job around you. This is the only place where you feel you can discuss it. When you go home, you can’t give that kind of detail.

You are surrounded by people that are doing it next to you, with you, and they can understand where you’re coming from. It is just encouraging people to take that moment. Like I said, I know it’s difficult, it depends on what team you’re in and also if you’re new in the job, there’s lots of factors.

But I was quite lucky. I built up quite a good bond with my team. When I wanted to say something out loud, I’d be like, can you believe this? Can you believe what I’m just reading here? And then they’ll, I think everyone was like a mini detective and they go, sorry, he did what, or she did what? And that was great. That sparks the conversation, doesn’t it?

Paul: It really does. It sparks the conversation between what’s just shocked the life out of you with another colleague and then you’re sat there talking about it and that helps remove some of that stress and strain, doesn’t it?

Bunmi: Yeah. It definitely does. I think if it wasn’t for that, and I think back maybe in the early years of my career, I wasn’t able to talk to as many people as I could towards the end, to be honest with you. But it’s not to say that, I don’t know if that would’ve helped or made any difference, but I think it was just something that I was very worried about, and then over time it became something that I naturally dealt with by talking.

But I don’t know how everyone else has dealt with it or whether they’re desensitized that they don’t need to talk about it. This is just my personal experience.

Paul: I quite often believe this hasn’t been tested as far as I know, but I quite often think to myself, do you get to a certain point working as a DFI, where you’ve been exposed to so much of the darker side of humanity that you do quite simply become desensitized to a degree. It almost becomes not quite the norm, but what you see and do every day.

Bunmi: Yeah, I do think that, and then I think to myself, what about when we see it outside of work? I don’t know about you, but sometimes, especially if you are around like family and they see things on the news and the news is just the key place where you see traumatic conversation at least or something terrible that’s happened.

That’s when I feel, I wouldn’t say human, but I do respond in a different way to when I’m at work. I think it might be that I’m outside of work and I’m around people that it is equally as shocking. Or maybe it could be not far from where I live. That kind of thing has an impact if you feel like, oh my God, it could affect me.

When I’m at work, it’s almost like you go into a mode where, I wouldn’t say it’s not real, but you’re doing a job and you don’t overthink the effects it might have on your family and things like that because it’s the case.

That’s when it comes to being desensitized. You look at it just as a case, even though it’s more real than maybe anything the media’s reported because it’s live. It’s on someone’s device, isn’t it? But you still think of it as very much this is a case and not an actual, I wouldn’t say a crime that’s taken place, but it’s part of being desensitized. You just look at the case in a different way.

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It’s, I suppose from a psychological point of view, you detach yourself from the actual acts and material that you are observing as a way of protection.

Bunmi: Yeah. It could be that. It’s not even something that I know is happening. It is just my mind drifts when I’m kind of working. I’m not actually focused thinking, don’t take it seriously. I’m just kind of going through the motions.

I’m really focused on whatever’s in the scope, a certain picture I’m looking for. I’m just very focused on that. The other ones I’m like, no, I’m focused on what’s in the scope in the strategy. What am I looking for? I just really try and hone in on what I want and that’s it.

Paul: Before you went into the job, did you have any understanding of what the emotional impact of the job would be?

Bunmi: I wouldn’t say I didn’t have, I had some understanding and the understanding, and it wasn’t so much about emotions, it was definitely more focused on what you’re gonna see. You will see disturbing visuals, images, moving images, still images. And that’s kind of as far as it went. That was said at the recruitment stage, it was said in the interview.

That sentence alone was as much of that’s what I knew. I wasn’t aware of anything else. And when you say aware, it’s almost like if you ask anybody how would you feel if you saw a disturbing image? They’re gonna answer how they think they would feel. I think you can only imagine how you’re gonna feel.

I don’t even know if there’s like a checkbox or a list saying you might feel this or you might feel that. I’m not saying that would’ve helped, but it might have made me think, oh, okay, I didn’t realize that this is gonna stay with me for life. This image I can’t unsee. Or I didn’t realize that it might make me feel tearful. They don’t go into detail.

But should it be done at the early stages of a career? I don’t know. And also there are a lot of people that wouldn’t, they would go, oh, I’ll be fine. Like everyone says that. I’m sure most people say that if they’re trying to go for a job and they go, okay, you might feel this emotion, you might feel that. Doesn’t matter how many you list, most people that want that job will go, I’ll be fine with that.

That’s the problem. You are in a state where you are trying to get into an industry that you’ve wanted maybe for a long time. Even if you knew, I wonder what it would change.

Paul: Do you think there’s anything that could have helped you feel or be more prepared for that role? Or do you think it’s simply impossible for that type of work?

Bunmi: I don’t know about prepare. I think the only thing that could have maybe been different is if, I can only compare it to when you are pregnant and you get something called a SPOC assigned to you and they kind of walk you through what’s gonna happen with your maternity and you can reach out to them anytime and you get an email from them and they have little chats here and there.

The thing is, I know that support’s really full on, and I can’t imagine all law enforcement agencies or companies being able to provide that. And also support is very one-on-one, which takes a lot of time away from that individual to go through every single new recruit. I can’t imagine how that would work.

That’s why people end up in these situations where the management have to almost do it on a mass basis or some kind of group conversation where there might be 50 to a hundred people all in a room and that’s when it’s discussed. But one-on-one could have helped. But I’m understanding that the resources, that’s a massive high expectation.

I just think if it was like, oh, I’m worried, and then maybe someone was like, okay, don’t worry, it’s normal to feel like this. That’s the thing I didn’t know. It is normal to feel, to wonder how it’s gonna feel, if that makes sense.

I think about when I was so concerned about how I’m gonna feel, and it would’ve been nice to be able to have someone go, trust me. We’ve all felt like that. And then speaks to people that have been like, oh no, that’s, in the same session. Oh, I was like that. And this is how I felt.

But that’s, I don’t know how that would come. Maybe in training, maybe an external could have came in or something like that. Probably training whilst you’re learning about the very technical side, there could have been the psychological talk as well.

Paul: Yeah. I agree. I don’t think there’s enough preparation put in before DFI are actually put in front of the screen, exposed to difficult material.

Bunmi: I don’t know what your thoughts are. I’m trying to imagine what could help, do you mean in terms of training as well?

Paul: Absolutely. In terms of training. At present, I’m not aware of any training courses out there which are specifically designed at talking about the psychological stresses which DFI can become susceptible to, which would help them prepare for the work that they’re about to take on.

But also it would help them recognize those stressors in colleagues as you have already touched on tonight. Because if you don’t know what the stressors look like, how do you recognize them and how do you get help for them?

Bunmi: Yeah, exactly. Because not everybody shows trauma or the kind of impact by crying. I think most people think, oh, mental health tears, and it doesn’t look like, it might not look like that. It doesn’t. I can’t imagine it being the normal way of looking.

Sometimes it’s literally just a conversation. And then finally it’s been in their minds. And then for whatever reason they’ve decided to speak about it. Like they might just turn off the, like I said, having lunch or talking about their kids’ Christmas play. And then they might speak about it and then that might be the moment that you, whatever you say, can have a big impact.

So it’s time to put the mouse down and turn and speak. It’s really hard. In forensics you are sometimes so zoned in on whatever you’re doing, especially if it’s analysis or you’re looking for a specific image or message. It’s hard for your colleagues to know that this is the moment.

That’s the problem in digital forensics really. When do you kind of go, okay, this is a moment, let me stop what I’m doing. Because no one turns and goes, hi everyone, I’m having a mental health crisis. Could I talk to you please? It’s never introduced like that is it?

Paul: If only it was that easy to spot.

Bunmi: Yeah, exactly. I think it’s because I’ve got to know my colleagues and I’m not saying that there was mental health issues or crisis. It could have just been them having a conversation and it could have just been a natural thing that they did and turned around.

But like I said, I’m going by my experiences and when something was so unbelievable, my first instinct was to say it out loud. It reminds me of that saying, problem shared is a problem halved.

Paul: Trauma shared.

Bunmi: Trauma shared is trauma reduced, or something like that.

Paul: I think you hit the nail on the head there when you said a problem shared is a problem halved. Social support comes out as one of the top coping strategies within the research that’s being carried out in this area.

So what do you think, simply talking through incidents, how do you think that made a difference to yourself and the colleagues?

Bunmi: I think it helps you to do your job properly or do your job better. Because if you know you have that support around you and you hit a difficult moment, you’re not feeling like, okay, I can’t say this, I’m gonna be judged.

No one speaks about this kind of thing, so I don’t wanna look like I’m not handling it. This is what I signed up for. I shouldn’t, they might feel like they can’t speak about it. All those thoughts that probably go through a DFI’s mind when they’re thinking, shall I say something?

It should be a case of just feeling comfortable with saying a thought, a passing thought. And it doesn’t have to be, oh my God, I need an hour of your time. It’s just saying out loud what you’ve seen if that’s okay.

Sometimes people say, oh, do you mind if I show you something? And you’d be like, if that was the moment, someone would be like, yeah, sure. Someone might say, I’ve just had my lunch, not right now. But just having that was just, it just helps me be able to work better because I knew I had someone to talk to and it was like, okay, I can go into the next case now.

Sometimes, you probably know, it’s case after case, isn’t it? You can’t select, it’s based on urgency, it’s based on priority and things like that. You can’t go, okay, I want a break from CSAM this week. I can’t do it anymore.

But at the same time, I feel like if I did have that strong feeling, I’d be able to talk to my line manager about it without feeling like, okay, why is she saying this? This is what she signed up for.

I think that’s another thing as well, having supportive management. If you’re having a difficult time and you say, look, I want a break from indecent images of children, can you put me on another case? And for people to feel comfortable with that.

Paul: Strong enough to do that.

Bunmi: Yeah. I think if I knew that it would’ve helped as well. These are little things that I might have thought of in my early years. If it’s too much for me, who can I tell? I can’t stop halfway through? Can anyone take over? That kind of thing. And there’s no, no one tells you that you can do that.

I’m sure it’s just about knowing that it’s an option not to abuse it and say you’ll never do it because obviously you know what you signed up for. But if you do have that, just have some way of somebody helping you back in. Whether that’s sending you for some kind of therapy internally or on a course.

There doesn’t seem to be any way of feeling comfortable to say something without it detrimenting your career in the job.

Paul: I think you touched on so much there. You mentioned in your post on LinkedIn the unwritten expectation to stay strong and just get on with it. How did that kind of culture affect your willingness to be open about what you were experiencing at the time?

Bunmi: I think I found it difficult because I was quite an, and I still am an empathetic person, even though I’ve seen a lot of things and heard a lot of things. When you come into a job where a lot of people are quite serious, this is, they’ve got deadlines and there really doesn’t feel like that kind of time to talk and show emotion in the job.

When you are somebody that’s quite the opposite to that. And like I said, I remember actually telling these people going, oh, how do you cope with it? What do you do when you see it? And I was trying to get an answer because I was thinking, oh, maybe this will help me, kind of thing.

I didn’t really get any responses that was something that would help. And it was just like, I just do. That’s what I mean. It’s very like, this is an uncomfortable conversation. Let me just move on and hope she doesn’t carry on asking anymore. And that’s kind of what I got.

I think it’s moved on now, and this was a long time ago, and I hope that generally labs, hubs and teams have kind of moved into a place where people can feel comfortable to talk.

But I definitely felt the odd one out, let’s put it that way. Whereas mental health is spoke about more now, it was only eight years ago I started. Back then it wasn’t as prevalent on the TV and the media as it is now. It was a little bit of an embarrassing topic.

But I was quite aware of my wellbeing and mental health outside of work. It was just natural for me to come into the workplace and go, oh, well how did that make you feel? I don’t know about you, but some people that have been through things, they end up kind of analyzing things in a different way, and I like to ask people how that made them feel and things like that.

If you are not naturally comfortable talking about it, and especially in our line of work, there’s no space. There was no space for that. There was no need for it. Why is this person talking? It felt a little bit like that.

Let’s just crack on. Let’s get plugging in, let’s get extracting, downloading. Why is she asking how I’m coping? Like, I just get on with it. So it was tricky at first, but like I said, I think times have changed and that’s really helped people be a bit more open about it. I’d like to think.

Like I said, I can only talk about my experience, but I’m hoping it’s a bit more of an open conversation in other workplaces as well.

Paul: I think you’re right. It is a generational thing. I watched the younger DFI coming in over the last few years of my service, and I tended to find that the younger DFI coming in fresh from university were way more open about talking about how they actually felt.

Now to us old dinosaurs, it was like, what on earth is this? What’s going on here? But I think that generational change will open the conversation up more as time goes on. I hope it does.

Bunmi: Yeah. Definitely.

Paul: One of the other things that you raised in your post was the idea of psychological screening as part of the recruitment process.

Bunmi: What do you think that might look like? That’s a difficult one because I kind of read it back and I thought to myself, it could eliminate some good potential candidates for the role because at that stage in their career, they haven’t done it before. How do they know they’re gonna be good at it?

How do they know they’re gonna be emotionally strong? What does a test look like that tests your emotional strength to seeing trauma? I can only imagine these really crazy psychological tests where they sit you down and you’ve got wires connected and you’re seeing, you’ve probably seen them late at night on BBC Two and they’re just like doing all these crazy experiments.

I don’t know what that looks like. When I wrote it, I was thinking that is quite wild. I don’t actually know how you can really test that without somebody being freaked out and not even wanting to apply for the job. It might put them off completely.

I’m not really sure how that would look, but when I wrote it, I was thinking of the people that may have gone through something that they’ve maybe kept inside and then they see indecent images and it might bring some trauma back, or not even related to something that happened to them personally.

It could just be something that they haven’t quite dealt with. And I think, again, I’m not a psychologist, but it may have a negative impact on their mental health further, or how they carry out the job. It could lead to their own personal crisis.

But who knows, I’m not in a position to say how to score or mark that and I don’t think any job, I can’t imagine they ask you have you gone through something terrible in your life and you go, yes or no? It’s gonna be like a 99% no, isn’t it?

That’s the problem. Is there any point in trying to create a screening test when it’s relying upon people being honest at the same time? And it’s not anonymous because they’re trying to get a job, so you can’t even make it anonymous.

They know that information’s got their name all over it. And when you’re in digital forensics, you’re like, where’s that going? That’s not being deleted, my name’s attached to it. Where’s it being held? When’s it gonna creep back up on me? Are you gonna send me for a psych test every year?

Is it just gonna be me? Is anyone else in my team wrote yes on that form? All these things are gonna just turn people away. It would really be a struggle to work out what that looks like. I’m just trying to think of careers where maybe it’s used at all. I don’t know if you know, but I’m not sure.

Paul: I mean, I completely agree with what you wrote in your post actually. I think psychological screening and psychological interviewing should be included within the interview process right at the start to properly assess that individual is fit for the role.

That isn’t just, or shouldn’t just consist of psychological screeners. For example, the GAD center or PHQ-9, but it should be a full on assessment by a qualified psychologist who can decide whether that person is fit for the role before the end.

By doing that also, you set the baseline. This is purely my own opinion. By doing that also, you set the baseline so you understand at what level that person’s scoring in the assessment and on the screeners.

If later on down the road, say in six months, 12 months, they’re retested and there’s an increase, the psychological professional psychologist can explore that with the individual and identify if that increase is significant, and if it is, they can tackle it at the earliest possible opportunity.

But sadly, I’m not aware of any force in the country that is actually doing that right now. Not at the interview stage.

Bunmi: Yeah, I mean, I haven’t heard of it at the interview stage. The only thing I was gonna say was with those tests, I think if you was to introduce that, I don’t know how it’s happened in other forces, but if you introduce that, there’s still that fear of how’s that information gonna be used?

Is it gonna affect promotion opportunities? What’s your relationship with your line manager like? Are they gonna kind of go, oh yeah, I thought so? That kind of thing. All these kind of, the taboo that’s attached to kind of identifying that you might need some more support.

That’s why I always wonder, is it gonna capture the right people that probably need that support? Are they gonna be the ones that are filling it in honestly and correctly? It’s hard to tell, isn’t it?

Paul: I think again, you just touched on another really good subject where there is tons and tons of research which have identified this, and that’s the stigma around help seeking.

The way you’ve just talked about the worry that DFI have, whether this will impact on their future, on promotion possibilities. That is still why a lot of DFI don’t seek the help and are actually affected by the stresses. I think you just hit the nail on the head beautifully there.

Bunmi: Yeah. I think it is that as well. But then I know that there’s a lot of DFI that are quite happy in their position and they’re not applying for a promotion. Sometimes when they’re in that position, they’re almost like, I just want to sit quietly in the corner and get on with my job.

If I fill in this and it reveals something that’s gonna bring attention to me, which might mean a meeting, which might mean I have to go off to another site, or I’m just very comfortable right now, I don’t want anyone to ask me why I wrote that.

I just think how can it work? You’ve got people worried about promotion. You’ve got those that don’t want to be disturbed and be pulled into meeting rooms. There’s also just email back and forth with the psychological team and you must now fill in, now you’ve raised some kind of concerns for us.

Now there’s another one, and I’ve seen, to be honest, I’ve seen some language behind these and they are very, oh, goodness me, that’s quite concerning, that kind of thing. They’re not like, hi, thanks for reaching out. They’re not that friendly tone, how I would’ve imagined.

When I’ve seen them and they’ve been quite like, right, you have hit level so and so, so we are going to need to go on to the next stage. It’s almost disciplinary style language.

Paul: It is.

Bunmi: I don’t know why that is. I don’t know if that can be changed or why does it have to be so serious when you’re supposed to be helping someone?

Paul: I think it’s systemic change that needs to be led from the top down, isn’t it?

Bunmi: Yeah.

Paul: Everything needs to be looked at. The way people are tracked when they sort of reach out and seek help or admit that they need a bit of relief from the exposure they deal with. It’s systemic. I believe it’s gonna take a strong leader at the top to stand up and say, this has to change.

Bunmi: Yeah. I think that’s the only way really, and it’d be great, all these, like you said, young graduates coming in and I think over time, it’s a shame we have to wait maybe until they’re superintendents or whatever, but it might take a little bit of time for them to kind of move through the system and go, okay, we’ve noticed this on our journey in digital forensics.

That’s not right. People should feel like it’s a safe place when they want to kind of open up and say, I’ve been feeling this, I’ve been feeling that. It shouldn’t be a case of, okay, maybe you’re not fit for the job.

I think maybe a lot of people feel like, oh, you might not be the right person for this because we told you in the beginning remember. That’s how it is sometimes. Like I said, I really hope it’s changed.

Paul: I’ve heard this saying so many times said to me from DFI, and I’ve had it said to myself when I was working as a DFI and I really detest it. You knew what you were signing up for.

Bunmi: Yeah, I know. I don’t like that phrase either. Can you be prepared for it? Can you?

Paul: Exactly. You’ve got no idea what you’re signing up for. Ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous.

Bunmi: Yeah. I think it’s the whole, sign in, looking at the small print thing, isn’t it? Read the small print. It’s a bit like that, which I don’t like either, because when you are trying to start a career and do something meaningful in something that you think you’d be fantastic at, and then they go, oh, remember that bit we told you a long time ago?

Remember? And it’s not about that. It’s about, okay, I did know, but I didn’t expect to be left with just that wording and the rest is up to me.

Paul: Before we wrap up, one final question. If you could influence policy, culture, or training, for example, what would be the first thing you’d change?

Bunmi: Again, I think I mentioned it earlier and I know resources will be stretched for this, but just let everybody have a mentor, someone they can turn to in confidence when they start. How that looks like, I’m not sure, but just a phone number or an email that you can just say, I saw this today. It really freaked me out. I just wanted to let you know. You’re free to speak for a minute.

Just someone that can help like that and just assign somebody or maybe a physical person, assign some newbies and they could get that help. Just knowing, even if they don’t use that person, but knowing, just knowing that someone’s there when they join a new team and they haven’t got anyone to talk to because they’re new, they’ve got someone dedicated and they know they’re gonna call and that’s exactly what they’re for. I think that would be great if that could happen globally.

Paul: I think that’s a fantastic suggestion. I really do.

Bunmi: Yeah.

Paul: Ladies and gentlemen, it’s been a pleasure talking to Bunmi from Sena Forensics tonight. Thank you. I hope you enjoyed this podcast. Thank you Bunmi.

Bunmi: Thank you very much. Of course. So much confusion. Sorry it’s Sena Forensics.

Paul: Thank you so much for joining tonight and sharing your experiences with us.

Bunmi: Oh, you’re welcome.